Thread: The new 'market ban' tag

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  1. #1 The new 'market ban' tag 
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    PS: Before posting, read the post. This may sounds obvious but I want to prevent short posts that add no value to this complaint.

    First of all, let me start of by saying that I believe the idea of preventing future scams is a good thing, and that I'm very happy that the staff team have came up with a system in attempt to combat future scams.

    For those who don't know today's update, starting today users who have been previously banned for scamming will be receiving a 'market ban' rank which restricts the market section from users. The image below contains a full explanation:



    tldr; forum ban and having a permanent market ban after refunding is punishing enough and a permanent tag which gives you a negative impression and brings more shame is just too much. not everyone deserves that

    While restricting users from the market section is a good thing, I don't think giving users a permanent market ban tag is a very healthy thing to do. Now you might be asking me ''Why wouldn't it be healthy? You're making it easier for users to determine whether you're a known scammer or not.''. Well, let me tell you that the tag will most certainly have a lot of side-effects which in my opinion overweight the pros.

    We have a list containing all known scammer which can be found here. Most users who truly seek to do market activities with other users will most certainly take a look in this list before dealing with the user. In my opinion, it's your own fault if you don't take the effort (a.k.a 10 seconds) to look up the user you're dealing and get scammed shortly after. Anyhow, the market tag will come in handy in this case as you no longer have to look up an user as soon as you're going to perform market activities with the user. Basically the tag will reduce the chance of the small group of users (new users/those who are too lazy to look up an user) of getting scammed. This is literally the only advantage I can come up with.

    Now for the downsides. Your user-pofile will contain a market ban tag. This means that whenever you message someone, post a new thread, reply to a thread, post a new group discussion etc, everyone will be able to see that you're market banned and they will get a negative impression of you. Is this fair? No, not at all. Some users have been banned for disputing a payment they didn't agree with (such as low quality deliveries), others were unable to pay in time when they received their product etc. Everyone on the known scammers list did scam, but not everyone should be forced to be permanently recognized with a market ban tag.

    To give a personal example, I myself was banned because I scammed after having a disagreement with an user. I was banned for over a year and have refunded everything to the user. I was also permanently restricted from the market section and not allowed to take place in any market activities. I believe that I have been punished enough for the mistake I made and I think receiving a permanent market ban tag goes way too far. I was given a second chance and I haven't been through any major offences after I was unbanned almost a year ago. In the real life, getting out of jail doesn't mean you have to be recognized with your offence for the rest of your life, a second chance means a clean start. And while I understand I will never be able to get involved into any marketing activities in this community, I believe a second chance should be a clean start and the market ban tag is recognizing me of something I've done 2 years ago.

    Before posting, keep in mind that I don't disagree with the idea of lowering chances of users getting scammed. I believe the idea of discussing new ways to do so is something the staff team really did a good job at, and I give them my full respect.

    Thanks for reading
     

  2. #2  
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    Faze's Avatar
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    If you're a scammer you deserve to be embarrassed. Most transactions are pretty miniscule in the scheme of things and if you're shitty enough to scam someone in these microtransactions then it should really say "Shithead" and not Market Banned.
     


  3. #3  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faze View Post
    If you're a scammer you deserve to be embarrassed.
    That's your opinion, I don't think a permanent embarrassment combined with the forum ban and permanent market ban is justified for all cases.

    Quote Originally Posted by Faze View Post
    Most transactions are pretty miniscule in the scheme of things and if you're shitty enough to scam someone in these microtransactions then it should really say "Shithead" and not Market Banned.
    I don't agree with at all. As I said here;

    Quote Originally Posted by Savions Sw View Post
    Some users have been banned for disputing a payment they didn't agree with (such as low quality deliveries), others were unable to pay in time when they received their product etc. Everyone on the known scammers list did scam, but not everyone should be forced to be permanently recognized with a market ban tag.
    Let's pretend you let someone code you a minigame for 10$ and you find the minigame to be not equal to what was described/asked before the deal (e.g. you wanted a zombie minigame but it contains many bugs) and you refuse to pay up the 10$. You will get a forum ban, a permanent market ban and a permanent recognition of being a known scammer. The entire point I was trying to make was that the bans are punishing enough and this tag just takes it over the top and that not every offence that can be considered a scam should get punished equally.

    Did someone pay you 500$ and you walk away with it like nothing happened? Or did you dispute the 500$ because the product you received isn't what you asked for. The users from both cases are banned for being untrustworthy (considering they both took 500$), but they differ in terms of how bad the actual offence was.
    Last edited by Savions; 03-13-2016 at 04:02 AM. Reason: Added an extra example
     

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  5. #4  
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    I think it should show. This give users information at once if the person is trustworthy or not.
    When people post on the market section it should show either: Trusted, Neutral, Banned etc..
    X Vouches is required to get trused rank or something..
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  6. #5  
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    We have a list containing all known scammer which can be found here.
    And it was ignored by many. There are a very distinct set of reasons as to why this was introduced in the first place. A lot of it was because people were being scammed by known scammers despite there being a list. The "tag" is a very, very good way of letting people know that the person is on the list. It's considerably passive - about as passive as we can make it.

    Most users who truly seek to do market activities with other users will most certainly take a look in this list before dealing with the user.
    As mentioned, this is incorrect. Of the current scamming reports (there's 13 that haven't been handled or moved to the archives), only one person who posted a report has viewed the known scammers list since it's creation. I don't expect you to have known this before-hand as only moderators/administrators can see these statistics, but they're representative of how little people actually pay attention to such things.

    In my opinion, it's your own fault if you don't take the effort (a.k.a 10 seconds) to look up the user you're dealing and get scammed shortly after.
    I totally agree with you. I totally think it's 100% your responsibility if you get scammed by somebody. Unfortunately, as staff members we represent the entire community, not just ourselves. There was a high demand for bringing more attention to those who have previously scammed.

    Basically the tag will reduce the chance of the small group of users (new users/those who are too lazy to look up an user) of getting scammed.
    As mentioned earlier, there is a large group of users in that boat. On top of this, if I'm market banned and I contact you via Skype rather than the forums, you might check my profile and see that I'm market banned and have scammed someone in the past.

    Your user-pofile will contain a market ban tag. This means that whenever you message someone, post a new thread, reply to a thread, post a new group discussion etc, everyone will be able to see that you're market banned and they will get a negative impression of you. Is this fair? No, not at all.
    Isn't it? A person with the tag tried to steal hard-earned money, hard work, time, and energy from somebody and run off with it with no intention of giving it back until they were banned. It's VERY fair that they receive such recognition. This also applies to your TL;DR where you mentioned something about shame.

    Some users have been banned for disputing a payment they didn't agree with (such as low quality deliveries),
    I feel like you're insulting our intelligence in terms of handling scamming reports. We aren't stupid - we know how to properly handle scamming reports. If somebody was providing work that is not up to par with what they promised, THEY are at fault, not the buyer.

    others were unable to pay in time when they received their product etc.
    That's like asking the credit card company not to tack on interest at the end of the month because "you were unable to pay in time when the bill came in". A user is responsible for paying what they agreed to pay when they agree to pay it. No exceptions unless the buyer/seller says so.

    I was also permanently restricted from the market section and not allowed to take place in any market activities. I believe that I have been punished enough for the mistake I made and I think receiving a permanent market ban tag goes way too far.
    Who is to say you might not scam someone again? The tag isn't designed to shame users, give them a bad reputation, and so on. It's to warn users that X user has scammed someone in the past, and the chances they scam someone else are potentially greater in theory.

    In the real life, getting out of jail doesn't mean you have to be recognized with your offence for the rest of your life, a second chance means a clean start.
    You're incorrect. If I'm ever convicted of burglary, you better wish me the best of luck ever getting a job that deals with managing/handling/working with products, equipment, and so on. It goes on your permanent record my man, and that shit follows you through life. Some employers might forgive it, but it's still there.

    I believe a second chance should be a clean start and the market ban tag is recognizing me of something I've done 2 years ago.
    Perhaps you can suggest a way to appeal market bans then. If you decide to do so, you better have some very good reasoning and points behind it.

    Final Words
    This is more of a "beta system" right now. We're seeing how it goes, because we have to do something without turning Rune-Server into a market website by giving the black market too much attention in the first place. At this current state, this is quite literally the best way we could go about handling as many problems as we could all in one shot. If you have any changes, suggestions, or different systems altogether, you're more than welcome to suggest them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isak View Post
    I think it should show. This give users information at once if the person is trustworthy or not.
    When people post on the market section it should show either: Trusted, Neutral, Banned etc..
    X Vouches is required to get trused rank or something..
    Unfortunately pal, vouches really aren't representative of anything. Anybody can "vouch" for somebody without actually having a successful transaction with them. I can vouch for Scu11 right now just because we're friends, but he could go ahead and scam somebody for $100 anyway. Vouches really don't mean anything and they don't guarantee any sort of legitimacy to a buyer/seller.
    Last edited by Thakiller; 03-13-2016 at 04:14 AM.
     


  7. #6  
    Registered Member xRokku_Ri's Avatar
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    I agree with Faze.

    Spoiler for Story:
    I was scammed twice here, both times by guys with vouches, tons of positive rep, and post count(irrelevant). I was scammed once for 15 dollars by a guy who promised delivery of a product only after I paid first. The agreed payment for the particular service was 60 bucks, but I wouldn't send him the full amount. I wanted proof that he had done what I asked, and he gave me these BS excuses like "I can show you the code but I cant test it cause I dont have a source to run it on". So, while skeptical, after seeing his vouches and his prominence on the forum, I gave him 15 bucks and agreed to pay the rest after receiving what I ordered. He blocked me from Skype and attempted to access my PC via teamviewer to do whatever mischievous deed he had planned. The second time I was scammed was when I became "partners" with someone and he helped me do various things on the server we were working on. He asked me for 35 dollars to put towards a bill he had incurred and said he would pay me back as soon as his pay day rolled around. Being a nice guy, I sent him the 35 dollars and same old song and dance... he blocked me from skype deleted everything in the shared dropbox and I was left with nothing.


    I feel like if you're gonna be a douche bag and scam someone, you need to be recognized for it. People who go to jail and get out DO walk around and live with that on their record. It's checked at every job, and if your crime was serious enough you're even prevented from living near schools, or going to certain places. I think the tag is a great idea.


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  9. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thakiller View Post
    Final Words
    This is more of a "beta system" right now. We're seeing how it goes, because we have to do something without turning Rune-Server into a market website by giving the black market too much attention in the first place. At this current state, this is quite literally the best way we could go about handling as many problems as we could all in one shot. If you have any changes, suggestions, or different systems altogether, you're more than welcome to suggest them.
    I'd like to thank you for taking the time to read my entire post and giving feedback on every point I made. I'm just really worried that the tag will bring in a huge circlejerk of downsides (considering most people here value vouches and other types of worthless recognitios) rather than actual pros. However, I didn't know the group of users who are unaware of the 'known scamming list' is quite big.

    Also, I have to admit that I really didn't think my jail example through considering I had a murderer in mind rather than a burglar trying to find a new job (which in this case probably made more sense).
     

  10. #8  
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    I agree with a lot that has been said for going against your opinions, why should it matter if this tag is shown on a profile? Yes it does suck that an argument upon payment for whatever service provided can be dumb, maybe stuff like that should be farther on looked at I suppose... But for someone actually feel the need to scam someone for 5 bucks or some crap, it's a little bit stupid if you ask me. Now I wasn't sure how the old system was before with the ban list, like if you weren't allowed to post in that section (What you stated, shows that I guess you really couldn't), which is what makes the tag a bit useless. I know I said it's useless based on what I had said, but at the same time it's a users decision to now give themselves that rank due to their stupidity towards actions they felt the need to do.
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  12. #9  
    The new 'market ban' tag



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    Quote Originally Posted by Savions Sw View Post
    Most users who truly seek to do market activities with other users will most certainly take a look in this list before dealing with the user.
    Conjecture with no statistics to back it up. Some don't even visit the market and deal directly via PM, you have no statistics to back up this claim.


    it's your own fault if you don't take the effort (a.k.a 10 seconds) to look up the user you're dealing and get scammed shortly after.
    Nobody implied it wasn't the persons fault.


    the small group of users (new users/those who are too lazy to look up an user) of getting scammed.
    Again further conjecture as you have no concept regarding the amount of users that don't lookup the scammers list.


    Now for the downsides. Your user-pofile will contain a market ban tag.
    This is a downside for the person who has scammed, not a downside of the system. This is a positive of the system as it will encourage you not to scam.


    Is this fair? No, not at all.
    Yes, it is. Feel free to actually tell us why though instead of just teling us it isn't and expecting us to just accept your word for it.


    Some users have been banned for disputing a payment they didn't agree with (such as low quality deliveries),
    Nobody has been banned for disputing terms they didn't agree to. If you didn't agree to them then we have no reason to enforce a ban, this is a completely false claim.


    others were unable to pay in time when they received their product etc.
    Not everyone banned for scamming is market banned, some cases are exempt.


    Everyone on the known scammers list did scam, but not everyone should be forced to be permanently recognized with a market ban tag.
    Why. This is just a statement you haven't given us any reason as to why.


    I believe that I have been punished enough for the mistake I made and I think receiving a permanent market ban tag goes way too far.
    So this just stems entirely from you not wanting to be publicly outed as the scammer you are?


    In the real life, getting out of jail doesn't mean you have to be recognized with your offence for the rest of your life,
    LOL WHAT

    Have you heard of something called a criminal record?


    a second chance means a clean start.
    No it does not, just because you think it does doesn't mean it does. A second chance means you repaid the person you scammed and now have blown your chance to ever trade with our users again.


    I believe a second chance should be a clean start
    Nope, you get one chance. How can we let someone use the market section again after scamming? Imagine if they scam somebody again and the user finds out we knew that they were a scammer. Unacceptable.


    and the market ban tag is recognizing me of something I've done 2 years ago.
    It doesn't matter when you did it.


    I don't disagree with the idea of lowering chances of users getting scammed.
    That's exactly what you're trying to dispute though? Because that's exactly what this tag achieves.

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  13. #10  
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    Also to you scu, thanks for reading the entire post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scu11 View Post
    Conjecture with no statistics to back it up. Some don't even visit the market and deal directly via PM, you have no statistics to back up this claim.

    Again further conjecture as you have no concept regarding the amount of users that don't lookup the scammers list.
    I was assuming that most users do read the stickied posts before actually posting. However, I have to admit that it wasn't a good thing of me to make that claim, so my apologies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scu11 View Post
    Yes, it is. Feel free to actually tell us why though instead of just teling us it isn't and expecting us to just accept your word for it.
    Because I believe that dealing with scammers equally is not fair considering cases do differ. As example, I scammed because the buyer cancelled a big service (which I spent a lot of hours at) when I was almost done (progress was also accessible to the buyer, so basically I felt scammed myself). Does that mean that I didn't scam? No. Does that mean my ban wasn't justified? No, not at all. But I really believe that there should be a big difference in terms of punishment between someone like me and someone who just received 150$ and walked away with it like nothing happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scu11 View Post
    Not everyone banned for scamming is market banned, some cases are exempt.
    Didn't know that, thanks for enlighten me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scu11 View Post
    Why. This is just a statement you haven't given us any reason as to why.
    Thought I made it clear when I gave examples of different forms of scamming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scu11 View Post
    So this just stems entirely from you not wanting to be publicly outed as the scammer you are?.
    Well if this was a mature community I wouldn't mind this much but sadly there is a large group here that puts value to 'vouches' and reputation and I can see a big circlejerk coming of irrelevant pointing to the market ban tag (e.g. ''you can't say my server is shit, you are market banned!'')

    Quote Originally Posted by Scu11 View Post
    LOL WHAT

    Have you heard of something called a criminal record?
    Yeah that's why I'm not against the known scammers list but against the tag. A criminal shouldn't have to wear a t-shirt saying ''Hey everyone, I went through a major offence years ago''. If someone seriously wants to consider doing market activities with me, then he is free to look me up in the known scammers list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scu11 View Post
    No it does not, just because you think it does doesn't mean it does. A second chance means you repaid the person you scammed and now have blown your chance to ever trade with our users again.
    I think it's justified that scammers are restricted from trading with users ever again, but that's not what this thread is about (once again, if I didn't make it clear, tell me because then I just edit the main post).

    Quote Originally Posted by Scu11 View Post
    Nope, you get one chance. How can we let someone use the market section again after scamming? Imagine if they scam somebody again and the user finds out we knew that they were a scammer. Unacceptable.
    Agreed completely, and that's why I think it's good that this is being discussed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scu11 View Post
    It doesn't matter when you did it.
    It does, I have learned from my mistakes and I have punished enough already. We both know that there are a lot of users here that value reputation and vouches and while I don't see any value in those, I still think that this tag will bring in another huge circlejerk.

    EDIT: This is what I mean with how obsessed users are with certain forms of recognition

    Quote Originally Posted by Isak View Post
    I think it should show. This give users information at once if the person is trustworthy or not.
    When people post on the market section it should show either: Trusted, Neutral, Banned etc..
    X Vouches is required to get trused rank or something..
     

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