Thread: How do I even get started, at all?

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  1. #1 How do I even get started, at all? 
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    I'm a veteran modder of many communities, but I'm feeling a bit very lost in this space. Idk what is, but it seems REALLY hard to JUST GET STARTED.
    I can see there is a set of a very few highly motivated and highly competent individuals, but there's also a lot of noise....
    At this point I'm done wasting time on the Discords and Forums looking for tutorials or compiled lists of tools which don't exist, or directions for those tools, or even basic information on WHAT THE TOOL EVEN DOES. A-B-C Always Be coding, I'm just going to start randomly poking around and pray that this Apollo project which looks promising, albeit genesised a decade ago, is a good place to start

    Important clarification edit: I don't want to make a RuneScape Private Server, for myself. I want to work on an open source Runescape client, that anyone can use completely free and it has the goal of being compatible with as many versions of rs2 as humanly possible. I don't want money, I don't want fame, reputation, or any of that shit. I want to play the video game with my friends and family the way we want, and if we can all benefit and cooperate in that effort; Sweet.

    But in the off chance that this catches the right eyes, here's a few questions I didn't find good answers to after reading for like... 8 hours
    What are the specific differences to the "bases"? If I pick one, how "locked in" am I? Does this fuck me down the road?
    It seems like they're coded with secrecy as one of their primary goals, and doesn't seem like there's much a difference between them? Some want you to buy them, and it feels like they're selling me some mediocre product; Sorry. Just what I'm reading. Is that take inaccurate?
    I mean, nobody seems to even have a 50% working version of rs2, and people are grifting their clients for money? What am I reading? What am I seeing?
    How EXACYTLY is an "engine" made? I think I have a good idea of the process of going from engine to client + caches, but I have no more information than that
    It also appears the definitions used in this community are pretty specific and unique. Sometimes the technical definition is used, other times the everyday use is acceptable
    It seems like modifications are being made to these engines, to help with compatibility between cache versions I guess. I'd LOVE to work on these engines in that case, and love to know more. But this is the least explained thing, despite seeming like the most important....
    How do we get simple.... functionality... of the game from our efforts to make clients and caches?
    Why don't skills "just work", is it an engine problem, a cache problem?
    What determines how "functional" the game is? What goes wrong?
    Where are the basic, "how to make a skill" tutorials?
    Is there a list somewhere of the "functionality" we've "conquered"
    I don't want to waste my time getting agility to work if 4 years ago, DBT already got agility working authentically
    What is the general consensus for which projects/bases are the best?
    These are all questions most people ask in the first 60 seconds of jumping into this world, how is there not a stickied post to handle this? Hell, I see three posts made in the last month from people who could have benefited from such a sticky

    Another massive problem is the counterproductive mixing of ideologies. It's great to have varied ideas and thoughts, as long as they don't compete AGAINST eachother
    People who want to monetize their contraband don't want an OpenRS2, bad for business.
    Forcibly mixing the two together creates another problem; Idk if I'm talking to a grifter or someone I can trust
    I'm not going to rant any more than this, it's enough to give you a picture of how insane a brand new person to these communities can be driven in a handful of hours, and I could continue to ask a million specific questions, but I think you get the point

    Basically: WTF is going on lol? and does anyone care enough and is still around to answer these questions for both myself and other potential new people?
    Last edited by AbelsGambit; 03-22-2023 at 01:40 PM. Reason: Clarified some thoughts and directed them better
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  2. #2  
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbelsGambit View Post
    I want to make an open source Runescape public client
    What does this even mean?
    Write a new client from scratch or refactor and deobfuscate an existing client?

    The former is a waste of time, the latter has already been done for various revisions.


    Happy to answer some of your questions if you elaborate on your goals and what you want to achieve.
    It would also be useful if you listed how you think private servers are made, so we can start there and work upwards. I'm getting mixed messages based on what you've said.
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  3. #3  
    Member How do I even get started, at all? Market Banned

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    I was so confused reading this
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  4. #4  
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    Important clarification edit: I don't want to make a RuneScape Private Server. I want to make an open source Runescape public client.
    You don't seem to understand what the server part means. This is essentially the engine of the game. What you mean to say is you don't want to host a RSPS for monetary gains, which is fine.

    Should probably start off by declaring what each of those things are.
    Client: It's essentially the graphical user interface, the thing that the player interacts with. It draws the world, the actors and such. It does not do any real logic processing on its own. It's just a tool to visualize what the server wants you to see, using the cache for its assets.
    Cache: Contains all the assets of the game, e.g. the animations, sprites, textures, models, maps, items, npcs, objects and such.
    Server: This is the main engine of the game. This is what rune-server is all about. We get the clients and caches from Jagex for free, just have to decompile the clients to make use of them. The server is the one thing we cannot get from Jagex, this is what people here spend years making. Most of the currently publicly playable servers have half a million lines of code in their server just to run the game. The server is also where all the bases come in. This community isn't all working on the same server, lots of people made their own ones down the road - that's why you see names like Elvarg, Apollo, RSMod etc. They're just various peoples' started projects, from scratch.

    What are the specific differences to the "bases"? If I pick one, how "locked in" am I? Does this fuck me down the road?
    Most notable is the revision. That'd be the version of the game it is targeting. Whichever one you pick, you will be locked into that one, there's no switching bases and retaining anything you've implemented, so choose wisely.

    It seems like they're coded by people who are tight lipped AF about what they did, but it looks like they didn't really do anything and its mostly a bunch of grifters posing as coders, perhaps all leeching off the work of the very few?;
    As I said, most of the servers out there have like half a million lines of code. No one can be bothered to list out every single feature they've implemented, it'd be in the thousands. Every little thing has to be coded by someone; every button you click on an interface, every NPC you attack, every click option you see in the entire game essentially. It all has to be coded by us. You will often see people list out the primary, huge pieces of content that the bases offer(e.g. raids, inferno, construction, etc), if they even offer content in the first place. A lot of the bases are relatively empty and are often referred to as frameworks, rather than actual bases.

    I mean, nobody seems to even have a 50% working version of rs2
    Not quite sure what you're referring to by RS2, but it is a wide list of revisions. Anything after 2008 is pretty much dead and never took off in the first place, so you're out of luck with those bases. The current OSRS bases just haven't had enough time to grow to those levels. This primarily leaves the 317s as the most content packed sources out there. You'd however be right in assuming that no server has even half its content implemented - OSRS for example has over a million lines of code. We are lucky to get to half that.


    Every other question you asked essentially comes down to the server. That is what runs everything and if something doesn't work, it just means it wasn't implemented server-side. The assets are always there, the client will render them just fine. The game just won't do anything if you try to interact with any of it, as the server hasn't got any code to handle it.
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    I appreciate the responses, even the troll gave me valuable information; Thank you.

    I'm grateful you're willing to let me ask questions and you'll take the time to answer them. I promise I have questions at the end of this post, I just wanted to try and build a little social cohesion, in hopes it helps the community, and clear up the goal thing, before I ask them.

    My stated goal was probably a bit more philosophical than appropriate... Public in the sense that I don't want ownership of the thing to be private (myself or otherwise), it's everyone's, it's a public resource, an MIT license. If one guy makes agility work authentically, then everyone else forever until the internet or GitHub explodes has a version of that client with perfect agility. That's what I expected to find here.... but... I couldn't. I looked pretty hard, did I just miss it? Also, client in the non-technical sense. Like, an exectuable client you just double click from your desktop and it boots runescape. Like Runelite.

    I just wanted to point out that there's no streamlined process of "getting started". There are no tutorials, there are no explanations, there is no repository of tools explaining what they do, and how to use them. There is no cohesion amongst the entire community to complete some mutually
    sought after goal. The links are dead, people are stealing credit from eachother, there's 10 versions of the same broken tool or client, and 10 more people claiming they can sell you the true working version of any of the faulty ones.
    It's a fucking nightmare (Rune-server is nowhere near as bad as others tbf).
    The bit about monetization is just to point out that...
    The group of people who steal IP from Jagex, only to turn around and try to sell that IP to others
    and the group of people who, say, want to make an Open Source Runescape 2/OSRS/3/etc
    are at odds with eachother. Their goals are antithetical to one another.
    You don't have to know this, or actively try to do it, for it to work. It's a natural outcome of each group fulfilling their goals, acting completely agnostically towards the other
    So the best thing to do is make completely different places for these people to go, not forcibly mix them together.
    I can imagine quite a few reasons why a community like this might form, but they aren't ideal. I was just pointing that out, sarcastically, admittedly. (I thought it may be easier to digest as sarcasm)


    This was never about me btw, it's about the future and the community. At the end of the day I'll fiddle-fuck with the tools and learn the hard way if it's worth it to me (it is)
    But I know that isn't true for everyone, and I also know that the more people we have working on an Open Source Runescape whatever, the better it will be, and the sooner it will get done
    The point of my veteran from other "non-official" communities which focus on hacking/modding comment was to point out that NONE of these other communities are like this one. They have all of the things I mentioned this one doesn't, and some of them are MUCH smaller communities.
    The customer experience is much better, and things don't get talked about for 15 years and still don't have even 50% of the work done. Things get done. No offense to anyone working on these things, I can see there is hard work being done, but trust me more hands = less work

    I guess I'm asking a favor of the people who actually understand this whole scene, and how to hack runescape expertly. Why not just make a stickied post called literally "Getting Started", with all of the things I mentioned in the first paragraph? If the reason is because you want to be tight lipped about knowledge so that you have a competitive edge for selling your RSPS, fine. But fucking own up to it. I know the reason isn't because they don't exist, I can see the work people do, but their secrets remain hidden for some reason. I just want to know why... Wouldn't that be a hell of a lot easier than having to screen the Help section and answer every noobs same exact questions? You could just simply put a link into the chat and direct them. I HATE feeling like I'm wasting your time asking beginner questions.

    Okay, I promised questions:
    If I want to work on a "base", for Runescape between 2004-2007, not OSRS, the original, ideally closer to build 474, I want to work on the one that is closest to complete, and one that there is a cooperative effort of many people all working to complete it, all sharing their work selflessly, which I could, at the very least, copy scripts into, if not just pull an update off Github every so often, hopefully to someday contribute something myself. Apollo seems like exactly this, and is where I would start not knowing anything else. Project Insanity had some interesting screenshots of someone working on it in an IDE or something which looked pretty plug-and-play. But I've heard criticisms of both, and have no idea what to trust without further explanation other than "this is bad". So what's the best base that meets the aforementioned criteria?
    Oh, and of course can you give me a link to it?

    What types of tools are even out there? Is modeling done in 3rd party software? Do we have to convert asset models from some .jagex file into a file something like blender or solidworks or 3dmax can handle? Then convert back? Does a sort of unpacker-converter tool exist?
    Is there a reliable mapping tool? Perhaps that combines modeling and texturing all in one?
    Basically, what are ALL the tools? and what are they compatible with? All versions of Runescape, rs2, osrs?
    Oh, and of course can you give me the links to these tools?

    Do we need to mimic the Server > Client approach? I'm not a network programmer, and it looks absolutely terrifying to try. Does a respectable base come with multiplayer automatically? Is there an alternative to the Server > Client approach? If I don't care about security because I trust everyone I will play with, can I use a simpler architecture, like P2P? LAN? Save myself the time trying to reverse engineer Jagex netcode?

    If you guys can answer those questions and have links to those things, that would save me, and hopefully a bunch of other people, a few days of headaches. Thank you for reading!
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  6. #6  
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    If one guy makes agility work authentically, then everyone else forever until the internet or GitHub explodes has a version of that client with perfect agility.
    Your agility would only work on a single base, whatever it was coded on. There are tens of bases all being used simultaneously right now. This is a big root issue to all of RSPS, the problem stems down to all the bases lacking in some way or form. The bulk of them were written a decade ago or longer, so they're automatically out of the question - people back then didn't know jack shit. A lot of the newer ones just aren't far enough to be publicly usable. A proper base that actually has content and is relatively-close to release-ready would take a single developer somewhere in the realm of 3-6 years to develop. Just think about that for a moment! If you think bringing on more developers and having a large team of capable people would get you done quicker - oh you couldn't be any more wrong! This has been done and tested time and time again and has lead to a lot of bickering and eventually people quitting - everyone wants their own way, you end up with people focusing on all the wrong things. Often times there just ends up being too much talk and not enough action, Apollo was a good example of that. Those 3-6 years I mentioned would be with active development, not with spending eons figuring out what the cleanest way to write xyz is. Need to compromise somewhere in the middle.

    A fundamental issue that a lot of the servers/frameworks nowadays have is trying to come up with the perfect design straight off the bat. This is impossible - the content is what ends up moulding your engine. You cannot know ahead of time what will be required of you, often times people just end up writing a super-clean-code framework that is borderline unusable for actual content, or just differs far too greatly.

    Like, an exectuable client you just double click from your desktop and it boots runescape. Like Runelite.
    This is possible, but you are in a place where development occurs. A built client that would be provided to the players is not what the developers would need. We often times need to read the code, sometimes even change it in the client. As developers, we have to keep it as a code project, just like the server is.

    I just wanted to point out that there's no streamlined process of "getting started". There are no tutorials, there are no explanations, there is no repository of tools explaining what they do, and how to use them.
    Comes down to the root issue I mentioned before - there are tens of bases. Each base is completely different from one another. You can even go as far as think of them as completely separate games, because that is essentially what they stem down to when you think about it in a way of "copy pasting code from one to the other". The code bases are completely incompatible, the only thing they have in common is that they often use the same clients and caches. Hell, there are some server bases that are written in different languages - you have Java as the most common language, primarily used by the older bases. Kotlin has taken RSPS by storm in the last ~5 years, most new servers are now written in that, a lot of the older ones that were in use are now partially in kotlin. You also have the occasional other-language projects, like Rust or C++.

    The links are dead, people are stealing credit from eachother
    The links being dead really isn't rune-server's fault. It's what naturally happens to most hosting sites after a decade or longer, they go out of business and the files go with them. You shouldn't really be looking at the old stuff anyways, it is not up to today's standards - the links being dead is no loss, at least as far as server sources go.

    The group of people who steal IP from Jagex, only to turn around and try to sell that IP to others
    and the group of people who, say, want to make an Open Source Runescape 2/OSRS/3/etc
    are at odds with eachother. Their goals are antithetical to one another.
    That's just the wrong way of looking at it. You think of the people who are hosting their servers for monetary gain as some evil villains. A lot of us are doing this as our full-time job. We have to make a living somehow. If your goals are open-source, just completely ignore the people running their server for monetary gain. They are not bothering you in any way, they're for the most part doing their own thing. They are not obligated to put months or years of their work on the internet for free for anyone to use. That is just a choice some of them make. It shouldn't be looked down upon in the slightest. As for "stealing from Jagex" - that's only the client and the cache. Both of these are provided to all of the players - they are public by design - the sole reason why RSPS has them in the first place. The source is where all the magic is, that is the one thing we cannot get from Jagex, and the one thing we have to write all ourselves.

    The point of my veteran from other "non-official" communities which focus on hacking/modding comment was to point out that NONE of these other communities are like this one. They have all of the things I mentioned this one doesn't, and some of them are MUCH smaller communities.
    The customer experience is much better, and things don't get talked about for 15 years and still don't have even 50% of the work done. Things get done. No offense to anyone working on these things, I can see there is hard work being done, but trust me more hands = less work
    You are very likely just comparing two completely different scale projects here. RSPS has had to over-come a lot of obstacles over the years, lack of information about the game being the biggest thing that haunted RSPS throughout the years. That is one of the reasons why nothing from the old days is good enough today - it was all built on a completely incorrect understanding of the game. We have only started to understand the depths of the game in the last couple of years - a very recent achievement. The wiki has also come a ridiculously long way in the past ~5 years - it's like night and day. You couldn't even find proper drop rates on more than half the monsters just five years ago, a pretty fundamental thing!
    Once again, the "more hands = less work" is not true at all. It's hard to find like-minded people, more often than not becomes a worse workplace altogether.

    Why not just make a stickied post called literally "Getting Started", with all of the things I mentioned in the first paragraph? If the reason is because you want to be tight lipped about knowledge so that you have a competitive edge for selling your RSPS, fine.
    Simply put, too many different bases, the thread would only apply to one specific base. It is also a lot to write - you try documenting half a million lines of code so it's easy for beginners to understand. Granted, a lot of that code would be content and wouldn't need documenting, but a sizable portion is still engine level stuff - and some content even acts as a mediary between engine and content - a piece of content that also acts as an engine for some other content to build upon. Honestly though, if the questions are valid enough, most people who are still left in the scene are more than happy to answer them. The problem comes from the fact that these people will not like a lot of the answers. If you're expecting a full eco-system with built tools and whatnot that makes development really easy, this just isn't the place. Nothing like that exists. So a lot of the times, the answer becomes rather complicated and requires having a fundamental understanding of RSPS to actually implement. Cache editing is the prime example of that - there are very few tools actually done for this. Over the recent few years, more and more people have adapted to text-based config files. This is the best way of going about it, but it is not easy to explain this to any beginners. They typically want fancy graphical user interfaces that typically end up slowing development down and add a lot of restrictions. Another issue is, most of the beginners want content-packed servers. The only content-packed servers that exist are from like a decade ago, meaning they are using some very ancient codebases. These servers would not have easy means of cache editing, leading into a bit of a dilemma.
    Simply put, there is no simple answer of "just use xyz". It doesn't exist. Whatever solutions that could work differ for each base, and often times simply don't exist and have to be coded from the ground up.

    If I want to work on a "base", for Runescape between 2004-2007, not OSRS, the original, ideally closer to build 474, I want to work on the one that is closest to complete, and one that there is a cooperative effort of many people all working to complete it, all sharing their work selflessly, which I could, at the very least, copy scripts into, if not just pull an update off Github every so often, hopefully to someday contribute something myself. Apollo seems like exactly this, and is where I would start not knowing anything else. Project Insanity had some interesting screenshots of someone working on it in an IDE or something which looked pretty plug-and-play. But I've heard criticisms of both, and have no idea what to trust without further explanation other than "this is bad". So what's the best base that meets the aforementioned criteria?
    Long story short, all the bases that are actually in a usable state today have their issues. Typically, the further back the source dates, the worse it is. I could not recommend a single base for a variety of reasons, most notably - I can't make a suggestion while knowing ahead of time that it will lead you to virtually unsolvable issues if emulation of any sort is in the plans. The only advice I personally have is wait a few more years, by then there should be some significantly better frameworks available. Until then however, it doesn't matter what you pick. Just pick one, but know ahead of time that it's strictly for learning purposes and whatever code you write will not be used in the future. You still need to get a fundamental understanding of the game before you can write any actually usable code. A lot of us have written multiple bases for this one reason - learning more things, realizing what we did wrong the first time, and realizing that it is easier to start from nothing than it is to adapt hundreds of thousands of lines of code to a new engine.

    What types of tools are even out there? Is modeling done in 3rd party software? Do we have to convert asset models from some .jagex file into a file something like blender or solidworks or 3dmax can handle? Then convert back? Does a sort of unpacker-converter tool exist?
    Is there a reliable mapping tool? Perhaps that combines modeling and texturing all in one?
    Basically, what are ALL the tools? and what are they compatible with? All versions of Runescape, rs2, osrs?
    This is by far one of the weakest points of RSPS. You can probably count on one hand all the tools that actually get used - datmaker(converts rs models to metasequoia format, this is a lossy conversion and only supports up to non-HD revisions), RSPSi(the map editor, probably one of the better tools made in RSPS), a couple animation editors but they're honestly so really bad so I wouldn't even recommend them.
    Most modelling is done with the use of datmaker and metasequoia(3d modelling tool). This has a wide list of issues though, so keep in mind. It is kind of difficult to represent RS models in a universal format like what blender would take, while retaining all the features. RS still uses keyframe animations for one - an outdated system that most people abandoned in the early 2000s. Most modelling tools don't even support that nowadays. I mention this regarding models because models also contain animation information(particularly, what triangles belong to what "bone group" - the animation moves bone groups, not individual triangles). RS additionally uses a priority system for their models, not depth buffering(though this was added with the HD revisions), which is another thing that is difficult to represent in the existing modelling tools. The models also support billboards and particles in later revisions, which just aren't realistically doable in any existing modelling tool. Another major issue is the animations support changing alpha, recolouring(later revisions), billboards - most animation formats do not support any of this. These limitations are really difficult to overcome - not even Jagex has. They have their in-house tools as well as blender and whatever else their artists use. Some parts of the modelling process are done with e.g. blender, since it's easier to use - and other parts are done with their rather painful in-house tools.

    Do we need to mimic the Server > Client approach? I'm not a network programmer, and it looks absolutely terrifying to try. Does a respectable base come with multiplayer automatically? Is there an alternative to the Server > Client approach? If I don't care about security because I trust everyone I will play with, can I use a simpler architecture, like P2P? LAN? Save myself the time trying to reverse engineer Jagex netcode?
    The "multiplayer" aspect is literally just a matter of changing the IP to which the client connects. You need the network part of things set up even if you're playing locally - it'd just flow through your local network, rather than connect to some other host. This is a non-issue.

    If you guys can answer those questions and have links to those things, that would save me, and hopefully a bunch of other people, a few days of headaches. Thank you for reading!
    As with most things in life - it's complicated. You won't truly understand what I mean here in this wall of text until you get the fundamental understanding necessary - by the time you're capable of creating your own tools, writing your own server from scratch - THEN you realize just how challenging it is to explain anything to beginners.
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    Fantastic answers. They are not what I wanted to hear, but that's life. I don't see anyone as a villain btw! There's no malevolence from either side, it's just people working towards their goals and they walk opposite directions. Probably explains the lack of a CEO leader type and lack of common vision, huh.

    In any case, I still wouldn't mind having links to these tools, so I can at least see where we stand.
    and I have tried downloading basically everything in the downloads sections of RS2 server, and RS2 client, from the first or second (maybe even 3rd) page, and none of them work out of the box, or have a readme, or even have a good explanation in the thread I got them from so...
    Any help there would be appreciated. Right now I'm actually trying to compile and debug all the map editors I found, praying I can get at least one working...
    Ideally, you could upload the working versions you have, and credit whoever is necessary, and I'll even go a step further as well, and I'll make a new post in the relevant forums called "tools as of March '23" or something of that nature, and I'll put the best working stuff we have there, with the credit attributions

    Particularly though, more information (ideally a link) on that c++ base would be great, I actually hate Java and oop in general so ANYTHING else would be great
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    Member How do I even get started, at all? Market Banned

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    Although i'm sure forum activity is appreciated, you'll get quicker answers in the discord.
    (assuming you can shrug off the occasional flame you might get for asking beginner questions)
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    This was more for everyone new, not just me. It would have been a nice resource for anyone new to come and have a little guidance, and certainly the other thread I offered to organize myself would have as well. Deaf ears and crickets though. Hand wavy answers and no cooperation. Instead I think it's just another example of deterrence, and proof of what I figured. It still stands as a useful resource, insofar as new people can at least understand the state of the community .
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    eli5

    each player has a client with the game assets (the cache)

    a server communicates with the clients to keep consistency between everything going on

    we already have the client and cache because every player needs a copy to play, but the bastards at jagex don't like to give us free shit, so they make it hard for us to use it for our servers by obfuscating the code and storing the cache in a proprietary compressed format which only the client understands (which we can't read without deobfuscating it)

    we mostly write the servers here, and then add shit to the cache (like dildo monsters), and sometimes we make client mods
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